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Post by ian on Feb 13, 2011 9:45:44 GMT
Having registered to Race in Mod Production in a 30 year old car i know there is no way of being competitive, However current Classic class is up to 1975...........what if any is the possibility of running a pre 1983 as ran in HSA W2 but for saloon cars, i'm sure many old alfa's, rovers, capri's, Jags, etc would love a run out.
The CSCC & CTRC run a 'Future Classics' for post 1975 and pre 1983 Class so it already exists in Circuit racing, cars need to comply with FIA Homologation and sections of the Blue book so rules already exist............how would i go about trying for Hills/Sprint Class as i feel there is a untapped market and a massive gulf from 1975 to modern day Millenium cars?
I have posted this on a well known Hillclimb site and had favourable replys and also written to the HSA and MSA but will be suprised if i get much in the way of a reply. Is there any way that LMC and the Speed Championship would consider putting this forward?
Regards
Ian
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Post by sprintman on Feb 13, 2011 10:47:57 GMT
Ian, how many entries would you envisage it would attract?
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Post by ian on Feb 13, 2011 11:01:53 GMT
Hi Steve, the answer is 'i don't know' all i know is that currently CSCC Run 2 fields of 30 cars of mixed engine cc for each Classification of year cut off (1975, 1983, 1993 i think) with reserves on top at 12 race meetings per year. The events are over subscribed. There are also other Championships that run 'Future Classics' 1970's,1980's, 1990's saloon in Homolagated classes. Even AROC and ARCA (alfa championships) pre 1990 cars are full fields of 30+ which for 1 make is pretty d**n good. I understand that this is Circuit racing but to entice 80's, 90's vehicles to the Hills/Sprints should appeal to many. I don't have all the answers and am very inexperienced in Speed Championship terms but really cant see why the 1975 cut off can not be raised. Any help would be appreciated.
Ian
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Post by sprintman on Feb 13, 2011 13:20:05 GMT
Hi Steve, the answer is 'i don't know' From an organisers point of view putting on a class where the possible number of entries is a guess has proved costly in the past. all i know is that currently CSCC Run 2 fields of 30 cars of mixed engine cc for each Classification of year cut off (1975, 1983, 1993 i think) with reserves on top at 12 race meetings per year. The events are over subscribed. There are also other Championships that run 'Future Classics' 1970's,1980's, 1990's saloon in Homolagated classes. Even AROC and ARCA (alfa championships) pre 1990 cars are full fields of 30+ which for 1 make is pretty d**n good. I understand that this is Circuit racing but to entice 80's, 90's vehicles to the Hills/Sprints should appeal to many. My view is that very few, if any, of these people would be interested in sprinting or hillclimbing. I don't have all the answers and am very inexperienced in Speed Championship terms but really cant see why the 1975 cut off can not be raised. This is a totally different issue. It would have to be discussed firstly at committee & then within the 'Northern' clubs to see if ... (a) there would be interest in the changes, and ... (b) if the clubs thought it would encourage more entries.
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bingy
Junior Sprinter
Posts: 14
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Post by bingy on Feb 14, 2011 19:34:52 GMT
Ian
We have always thought that the static pre 75 cutoff for classic class a little unfair. Although the Capri we run is a 1986 the technology is certainly pre 75 and yet we have to run with modern cars. With the ever increasing restrictions on what modifications you can carry out the disadvantage of running an older car is forever increasing and what is seen as a performance modification to our car is just the norm on a newer car. The possibility of not even being allowed in the future to have something as simple as a strut brace fitted is an example of this.
I know we chose to run an older car but we do seem to be stuck in no mans land with a car that will always be too new to be in the classic class but which cannot ever be competitive against most of the others in our class.
I for one would be interested should any changes ever be made (or alternatively I could always reshell the car using a pre 75 body that would basically leave me with a car that is exactly the same as I already have only now would be seen as a classic.)
Anything that could bring out a more varied selection of competition cars can only be a good thing.
Simon
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Post by sprintman on Feb 15, 2011 10:08:50 GMT
We have always thought that the static pre 75 cutoff for classic class a little unfair. Although the Capri we run is a 1986 the technology is certainly pre 75 and yet we have to run with modern cars. Good point; maybe we should consider moving the date forward each year? I'll mention it at the next committee meeting. Anything that could bring out a more varied selection of competition cars can only be a good thing. The introduction of the Standard Car classes was aimed at doing just that but it hasn't worked as yet! Every so often organisers take a punt with a new class or classes but in my experience they invariably fall between two stools. They do attract entries but usually from other classes so that the overall numbers do not increase. I often think it is unfair to lump all 'Historic' cars together in one class but the alternative would probably see half a dozen classes each with one entry - not the perfect solution!
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Post by ian on Feb 15, 2011 10:09:18 GMT
I received this reply from the HSA Chairman:
Thanks for your email and ideas.
As you say there is probably a large and untapped demand for older 'sports' cars in hillclimb and sprint championships. However, there are a couple of problems that immediately come to mind:
1. The MSA have established a format for classes in our events defined within their 7 categories and are insisting that all organisers to work within these definitions. The MSA don't recognise 'classic' vehicles in these categories so we have to make them fit by being roadgoing, modified, racing or libre. Not impossible but a bit of a bodge. 2. We already have too many classes and are looking to reduce them rather than add more.
As you are probably aware not many organisers cater for 'classic' classes and to be frank we haven't reviewed ours for a while. You comments are interesting and I will forward them to our committee for discussion. As and when anything comes of this I will let you know - it will also be announced on our web site.
Regards
Chris -- Chris Bennett Chairman The Hillclimb and Sprint Association
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Post by ian on Feb 15, 2011 10:46:14 GMT
'Although the Capri we run is a 1986 the technology is certainly pre 75 and yet we have to run with modern cars'. Hi Simon, FIA Homologation does not go on year of car Manufacture but year of 1st vehicle sold.......MK 3 Capri was 1977-1986 but don't know the Homologation number
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bingy
Junior Sprinter
Posts: 14
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Post by bingy on Feb 15, 2011 11:16:45 GMT
Ian
Thanks for the information but the regulations for the Speed Championship say a classic car is one "of a type manufactured on or pre 1st January 1973". I'm not sure if that means a car would conform if it is of a type that was first produced before January 73 but built after at that date or whether the actual car should have built pre 73. Either way I'm afraid it doesn't help us.
Regards
Simon
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Post by ian on Feb 15, 2011 11:26:10 GMT
we will see what transpires but in the mean time we will just have to chase the modern stuff, hope not too many evo's and scoobs are registered this year.
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Post by sprintman on Feb 16, 2011 11:06:29 GMT
Ian Thanks for the information but the regulations for the Speed Championship say a classic car is one "of a type manufactured on or pre 1st January 1973". I'm not sure if that means a car would conform if it is of a type that was first produced before January 73 but built after at that date or whether the actual car should have built pre 73. Either way I'm afraid it doesn't help us. Regards Simon When was the model of Capri that you run Simon first produced? It is certainly not an original Capri shape but the later revised version. I think if you were running a specific model of car that was (a) first produced Pre 1973, but (b) your car was manufactured after 1973, it would still be OK so long as it was running the same type of Pre 1973 engine/gearbox.
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bingy
Junior Sprinter
Posts: 14
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Post by bingy on Feb 16, 2011 17:57:03 GMT
Steve
My Capri is a Mk 3, although this could get complicated as I understand Ford never actually termed them as such but regarded them as a face lifted Mk2 although they commonly became known as the Mk 3. The Mk 3 was introduced in 1977 whilst the MK 2 was introduced in 74 so either way it is post 73. The pinto engine, running gear and suspension was all carried over from the face lifted Mk 1 which was introduced in 1972. As I have said previously if I re-shelled the car using a Mk 1 it would be eligible in the classic class as the whole mechanics I have in my car would still conform. It's just unfortunate that we have a car which uses old mechanics but which is seen as too new to fall in to the classic class.
Simon
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Post by sprintman on Feb 17, 2011 11:16:35 GMT
Steve My Capri is a Mk 3, although this could get complicated as I understand Ford never actually termed them as such but regarded them as a face lifted Mk2 although they commonly became known as the Mk 3. The Mk 3 was introduced in 1977 whilst the MK 2 was introduced in 74 so either way it is post 73. The pinto engine, running gear and suspension was all carried over from the face lifted Mk 1 which was introduced in 1972. As I have said previously if I re-shelled the car using a Mk 1 it would be eligible in the classic class as the whole mechanics I have in my car would still conform. It's just unfortunate that we have a car which uses old mechanics but which is seen as too new to fall in to the classic class. Simon This is a typical example of why I believe that the cut off date for Classics should be moved forward either each year or every other year!
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Post by ian on Feb 17, 2011 11:41:53 GMT
so all we need now is the above to happen...............do you happen to know how old a car is percieved to be before it becomes 'a classic' as for me this would be the time frame needed to be adopted?
Insurance companies vary with their definition from 10 years upwards
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Post by sprintman on Feb 17, 2011 16:24:37 GMT
so all we need now is the above to happen...............do you happen to know how old a car is percieved to be before it becomes 'a classic' as for me this would be the time frame needed to be adopted? Insurance companies vary with their definition from 10 years upwards Forget Insurance Companies it is the Goverment who has determined that Pre 1973 Cars get free road fund tax. This has almost become the standard by which these things are judged.
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