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Post by royodeboyo on Oct 24, 2009 10:07:36 GMT
Thank you all for an enjoyable night at The Presentation do last night! A good turn-out and a tasty buffet!
Nice to see faces other than through the helmet slit - I haven't had much chance to see what drivers look like unless they've had a whoopsie or broken down around Beechers over the past few years! (Memo to self - must get the car out next year)!
Which leads nicely onto my subject line...is my interpretation correct that the main change is the introduction of classes SA,B & C?? and... Reading between the lines, probably a tightening up of class checks at scrutineering??
Presumably (& hopefully) a mildly (!!) modified, taxed, mot'd & insured saloon -say for example, a Sierra Cosworth, could run in 2D if not eligible for 1C?? (why no rose-jointed suspension???)
My nephews have expressed an interest in joining the ranks of sprinters & hillclimbers, and asked me where imported cars fit into the scheme of things...however, what class would an imported version (ie non-UK spec) of a car which is/was sold over here fit into, and secondly what class would a car which was never sold in this country fit into?? Sports Libre seems the obvious, if not a little harsh, answer??
answers on a postcard please......
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Post by sprintman on Oct 25, 2009 14:03:46 GMT
I have asked the question(s) and await a response.
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Post by Ron on Oct 25, 2009 16:49:10 GMT
Were there less than 100 per annum made otherwise it would belong in Mod prod or Sports Libre would be the place, thats is unless anyone else knows better. Better still consult a friendly scrutineer!!!
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Post by sprintman on Oct 26, 2009 10:59:23 GMT
Imported cars are treated in exactly the same way as any other cars. So when I.70 (Roadgoing) and I.82 (Modified) refers to production numbers it is not an exclusively UK issue (the UK is not mentioned in either regulation). So as long as the production numbers criteria is met (and it's other limiting regulations are too) then it is dealt with in no different a manner as a car sold in the UK.
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Post by speedsport on Nov 1, 2009 22:11:19 GMT
Spot on sprintman. Production refers to worldwide production, not just cars for sale in the UK. LHD, RHD, they are all lumped together. (Ford only built 534 Escort RS2000 4x4's in RHD, but they could count the LHD ones built for other markets to get to the minimum production figure to make it eligible for events in the UK. Similarly, until recently the Ford Focus used in rallying has been the US version with a slightly longer body shell & bumpers but it still meets the MSA's rules even though it is not available through UK dealers.) We have been very careful, when looking at the new classes, not to start specifying wheel widths/wheel arch extensions etc, because different specifications are produced for different countries. Because the scrutineers cant possibly be aware of the spec of cars produced for overseas markets, we have said:- "In the event of an unresolved eligibility issue, the driver of the car concerned may be required to produce within four weeks of the event in question, a manufacturer’s catalogue to substantiate any queried modifications / specifications and allow championship points to stand." (See www.speedchampionship.com/regulations/northern-speed-classes/ ) So, I would suggest that before fitting something that wasn't available in the UK, or before using a non-UK spec car, make sure you have the paperwork to back up what you are doing. As for no rose-jointed suspension; apparently a car so fitted should not be able to pass an MOT, therefore it would not be road legal, therefore not eligible as a road car for competition! Hope this helps
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Post by royodeboyo on Nov 2, 2009 14:46:59 GMT
Ah-Ah! as they say - thanks for the info - always assumed production figures were for the UK! As my Grandad said.. 'Assume nothing - Trust No-one' as they led him away to the cells! (JOKE!!). So rose-joints won't pass an MOT - didn't know that either - is it because they don't have 'dust covers' on them?? If they did (devious here) - you wouldn't see them (either at MOT-ing or Scrutineering)??!! Any MOT testers out there?? Whilst at Lake Vyrnwy earlier in the summer I spied a couple of Westfields (or similar) in the cafe car park and had a nose at them (of course) - one of them had all rose-jointed front & rear suspension - it was on an F plate if I remember correctly so needed either an MOT or SVA - there was no one around it at the time so I could only look. You get a lot of sporty cars & bikes around there (no - I was in the L200) - as the roads are nice & twisty & fast (also popular with the Boys in Blue (quite rightly so!!) especially the one from Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochant to Bala! Good news is I've sold my rose-jointed TCAs & compression struts without loosing money & sourced standard ones to use with the (now) anti-roll bar set-up! (Currently being sprayed). I've attached a couple of pics to prove the car exists!! I haven't driven it for 14 years now (5 minute job for the MOT!!) - next year?? PS - can recommend the Jacket Potatoes in the Lake cafe!! Attachments:
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Post by speedsport on Nov 2, 2009 21:08:22 GMT
Hmmm! I'm now getting conflicting info about whether rose joints should pass an MOT. Apparently, they are not specifically mentioned in the MOT testers handbook, so they are a grey area. We have members who, rightly or wrongly, have had their car failed because of rose joints. Is this down to them not being type approved/homologated with such joints fitted? Presumably, having been a manufacturers option, Caterhams/Westfields are OK. Maybe someone has more info in this respect.
Having said all that, we are merely trying to produce a set of classes that are the same everywhere, rather than different events working to different rules. We want Class 1 to be a step up from Std Production with limited mods allowed (part of that is no rose joints unless originally fitted by the manufacturer), and then encourage those who wish to modify their cars further to go to Class 2. This approach seems to have the support of the vast majority, though as may be expected, there are a few voices of dissent.
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Post by sprintman on Nov 3, 2009 9:03:14 GMT
This approach seems to have the support of the vast majority, though as may be expected, there are a few voices of dissent. Most of these will have their own axe to grind or are rather put out by the fact they were not part of the process. ;D
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Post by royodeboyo on Nov 3, 2009 9:05:02 GMT
Mine is not a voice of dissent - just seeking clarification on what is obviously a grey area - I've seen rallying Cosworths - Sierras & Escorts on the road with rose jointed front suspension - ie. TCAs & compression struts & assumed they are legal! I absolutely agree that the tightening of class rules and providing a suitable class structure is the way forward. A 'standard' car should be exactly that - allowing for safety mods, belts, cage etc - I won the ASEMC Sprint Championship (<1400) back in the '80s with an absolutely bog standard 1.4 Clio which I bought after crashing (& writing off) my Uno Turbo at Goodwood - probably because I entered more events than anyone else! Good to see a bit of inter-action on the forum over this issue!!
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Post by Ron on Nov 3, 2009 11:04:34 GMT
Can I please put this one to bed finally. It is not a grey area!!! It is not a case as to whether on not they should be allow, I80 clearly states that "The suspension configuration must stay the same". This means you cannot alter type of supension that was originally fitted. As John has said the main objective of this exercise is to create what was originally meant which is to have three clearly defined classes of cars which is Standard, Slightly modified and fully modified cars so as to give all competitors to chance to be competitive. A little off topic:I remember the days when we had a thriving Autocross scene in the north which was eventually killed when competitors with loads of dosh hit the scene and saw that they could beat all the opposition by pouring money into their cars and all the club lads stopped competing. The same is going to happen to autosolos if it is not nipped in the bud. I do not want to see the same happening in sprints & hillclimbs, which has been happening over the last five or six years and possibly longer. Road modified class numbers have been dropping over the last few years.
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Post by ian on Nov 3, 2009 15:44:49 GMT
For Clarification, the suspension issue:
Do the rules mean that it is NOT allowed in Roadgoing if i change my Suspension from Conventional Strutts to Coilovers?
And If the Coilovers have adjustable top mounts does this mean that it is NOT allowed in Roadgoing?
Ian
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Post by sprintman on Nov 3, 2009 16:22:52 GMT
For Clarification, the suspension issue: Do the rules mean that it is NOT allowed in Roadgoing if i change my Suspension from Conventional Strutts to Coilovers? And If the Coilovers have adjustable top mounts does this mean that it is NOT allowed in Roadgoing? Ian MSA Regulation I.80 states quiet clearly that "The suspension configuration must remain standard." So simply put you CANNOT replace struts with coilovers.
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Post by ian on Nov 3, 2009 17:01:34 GMT
I think roadgoing might be a bit empty this year.................but modified will be busy ;D
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Post by royodeboyo on Nov 3, 2009 17:02:33 GMT
Now I'm confused - looking at the rules - for Classes 1A to 1E[/b] - that Pick-up Points & Method of operation must remain the same, then, later in the same paragraph that Springs & Dampers are free - then surely a coil-over is a direct & acceptable replacement for a McPherson strut as long as it uses the same mounting points?? Or have I missed something here??
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Post by ian on Nov 3, 2009 17:03:34 GMT
Right another point of Clarification please:
In Modified can i Run a Road legal Car without an MSA approved Roll Cage?
And Modified are the Tyres Free?
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